KH> At this point I feel it is reasonable to contrast this picture of Islam
KH> along with the claims of The Bab against the Ahmadi assertions. Hopefully
KH> it will offer a wider perspective for consideration. The founder of the
KH> Ahmadi Movement, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad-i Qadiani writes:
QUOTE> "I am not claiming that I am the Mahdi of Whom is written `He will
QUOTE> be a child of Fatimih and from My [i.e. Prophet Muhammad's. KH]
QUOTE> progeny.' etc..."
QUOTE> "Baraahin-i Ahmadiah" number 5, p. 185
KH> Mirza Ghulam Ahmad appears to know that he was not "The Mahdi" who
KH> we discussed, based on Ahadith Nabavi, in part 1 of this posting, so
KH> he claimed to be "a mahdi" (i.e. a guide) in its most general sense
KH> (i.e. a reformist scholar -Some of the Ahmadi friends identify Allamih
KH> Suyuti as such a reformer.-).
NM>On this particular quotes, I have found out that, indeed, these parts
NM>of Braheen-e-Ahmadiyya were writeen between 1880 and 1884, prior to
NM>his receiving revelation of his status as Promised Messiah and Mahdi.
NM>But even so, what he is referring to is the claim in the hadith
NM>regarding the coming Mahdi. He is saying that THAT concept of Mahdi is
NM>incorrect and therefore he cannot be the Mahdi as conceived in this
NM>hadith. The hadith above cannot be taken at face value since it is
NM>established in the Quran that lineal blood-decent plays no part in
NM>spirituality -- this is quite different to the Shi'i and Bahai
NM>theologies. It is clear that he DID claim to be the Promised Mahdi and
NM>Messiah of Islam later (as the writer himself confirms, see below.)
My dear Nadeem, please note that the keyword here is "different definition
of Messiah" used by Ahmadis and Baha'is. Clearly Ahmadis and Baha'is disagree
on this definition which, in my humble opinion, is fine. I am happy to see
that my posting catalyzed the Ahmadi clarification of their position. I
think the Baha'i perspective on this issue has been addressed in full, so
let us agree to disagree and move on.
KH> In "Majmoo'ih Ishtiharat" vol. 1, page 195 Hazrat Ghulam Ahmad writes:
QUOTE> "My claim of being like Messiah is based on revelation from God. That
QUOTE> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
QUOTE> is to say I, based on this revelation, consider myself to be that
QUOTE> Promised One, Whom people identify as the Promised Messiah out of
QUOTE> their ignorance. I do not deny that there could be another, like
QUOTE> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
QUOTE> Messiah, who might come or not."
QUOTE> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
KH> In the "Majmoo'ih E'lanat and Ishtiharat Qadiani" page 159 Hazrat
KH> Ghulam Ahmad writes:
QUOTE> "I have never rejected and will never reject the fact that the
QUOTE> Promised Messiah might be someone else. Perhaps these prophecies
QUOTE> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
QUOTE> (i.e. He is referring to the Hadith relevant to the Return of Christ
QUOTE> accepted by Sunnis. KH) which refer to me in a spiritual sense apply
QUOTE> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
QUOTE> to that Promised Personage."
QUOTE> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
KH> In my humble opinion the claim of Hazrat Ghulam Ahmad is that of
KH> being "A Christ" and not "THE Christ".
NM>The second point that there can be an other Messiah after Hazrat Ahmad
NM>is in principle correct. It is correct, according to Ahmadiyya theology,
NM>that Messiahship per se is a more general concept than what people
NM>may think. (Recollect that David was also a Messiah!) It may be
NM>this quote, but certainly at some point, Hazrat Ahmad has stated that
NM> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
NM>there will be an other Messiah before the end of the world. (I also
NM>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
NM>believe (but I am not sure!) that the 2nd Khalifa of the Ahmadiyya
NM>Movement, Hazrat Mirza Bashir-uddin Mahmood Ahmad, also said that
NM> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
NM>he was a messiah (but NOT THE Promised Messiah!).
NM>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I'd like to point out that by the term "the" preceding the term Messiah or
Christ Baha'is do not mean the same person of Jesus Christ, the Founder of
Christianity has returned or must return.
As you have clearly pointed out Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was "a Messiah" and
Mirza Bashir-uddin Mahmood Ahmad was yet "another Messiah". This is not
what Baha'u'llah claimed as I have attempted to demonstrate above. His
claim was that He was the Promised One of all religions and no one will
appear with the same caliber as Him until a thousand years. I very much
respect the Ahmadi approach to this issue and their characterization of
their founder as "a Messiah" and his khalif as "another Messiah" and I
can see why the Ahmadi friends would disagree with the Baha'i notion.
My dear Nadeem whatever you say about the implications of the various
statements I have quoted is fine with me and I am not going to argue with
you on that issue. My purpose has never been to criticize. However, please
contemplate on what I have said and what you have replied.
Please allow me to describe for you, once more, the Baha'i belief in order
that you might personally contrast it against what you have suggested above.
The time of the appearance of the Manifestation of God (i.e. the Revelator
of God's Command and Will, known by Muslims as either Messenger or Prophet
of God) is, according to the Baha'i theology, the "end of the world". It is
the "Day of Meeting God" [i.e. the Day when we have the opportunity to see
the Manifestation of God], the "Day of Judgment" [i.e. the Day when our
traditional beliefs becomes subject to judgment by the "Balance" established
through the revealed Word of God.], the "Day of Resurrection" [i.e. the Day
when the physically alive, yet, spiritually dead attain the station of faith
and become a believer in the Manifestation of God for their age.], the "Day
of Gathering" [i.e. the Day when the people who once hated one-another will
gather together under the banner of the Cause of God and unite together.],
the "Day of Reckoning" [i.e. the Day when all traditionally established
dogmas will be subject to judgment, reinstatement or abrogation], the "Time
of the End" [i.e. the Day when the time-honored beliefs reach their end and
new ones will be established in their stead.]. The Bab was rather clear
about the implications of such abstruse theological terminologies when He
revealed:
"What is meant by the 'Meeting with God' in the Qur'an is meeting the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Bab, for none can meet the Most Holy Essence."
Persian Bayan 2:7
Here, The Bab is identifying His own Day as the Day of "Meeting with God"
which is the "Day of Resurrection" or what people commonly identify as the
"end of the world". The Bab also defines this in a more universal manner
by characterizing the Day of the appearance of Baha'u'llah :
"On that great day [i.e. The Bab is referring to the Day of the latter
Resurrection. Day of the appearance of Baha'u'llah. KH] the Tree of
Truth [i.e. the Manifestation of God, or the Revelators of God's Will
and Command. KH], whose speech is continually 'There is no God but Me'
[I beg you to refer to the Book of Aqdas and count the number of times
Baha'u'llah repeats this sentence. KH] shall be manifest and all those
who are veiled therefrom imagine him to be a soul like themselves [i.e.
this is a reference to people such as yourself. KH]... Therefore it is
that the Day of Resurrection is called the Greatest Day, else it is but
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^
a day like all other days except that therein is the Manifestation of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
God manifest."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Persian Bayan 8:9
Please note that The Bab is characterizing the Day of the appearance
of Baha'u'llah as the Day of "Meeting with God" and as the "Day of
Resurrection" or what people commonly identify as the "end of the world".
I beg you to contemplate on this issue. You said:
"Hazrat Ahmad has stated that there will be an other Messiah before the
end of the world." ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^